Bring It On!

By Craig R. Harmon on May 13, 2005 | Reply

The article actually brings up some interesting discussion points. It is a shame whenever a congregation undergoes such a split, and it is almost always traceable to leadership, or the failure thereof. However, I do agree that Churches are going to have to develop policies that are both relevant to that Church’s theological stance and mindful of Church-State issues.

By Dr. Forbush on May 13, 2005 | Reply

I think its interesting that solution in these cases is fragmentation instead of unity. The whole Christian idea is supposed to be based on unity and community not fragmentation. But these problems go back to the conflicts over whether to circumcise gentiles or even whether to even include gentiles back in the early church.

By Hammertime on May 14, 2005 | Reply

Doctor,
You demonstrate your ignorance of Christ. He came to bring a sword, not peace.

That said, I want to propose a hypothetical:

A group of people form a club. They establish rules for joining their club. One of the rules is that they can vote people out of their club.

Now, assuming that you do not agree with the priciples of this particular church, youw ould have little regard for what it does. Why should you care who they let in their club?

Lastly, I think their actions are reprehensible. I happen to be somewhat attached to the “Baptist” church (coincidentally, the name held by more separate organizations and individual churches than any other), so I have a dog in this fight. They have SERIOUS issues.

By Hammertime on May 14, 2005 | Reply

Oh yes…and I still need to use PREVIEW. ARGH!

By Dr. Forbush on May 14, 2005 | Reply

Hammer,

Actually what you said is quite to opposite of what Jesus taught. If he actually were to bring a sword then why didn’t he lead a rebellion against the Romans? The Apostles kept asking him when the time would be right. However, Jesus continued to say that that WOULD NOT BE THE WAY! However, you 2000 years after Jesus have decided that Jesus meant to bring a sword and lead a rebellion; he just didn’t get around to it. So, his followers need to do this for him.

I don’t think so.

By Craig R. Harmon on May 14, 2005 | Reply

Dr.,

It should not be surprising that Christians think that Jesus came to bring a sword…he actually said as much after all (Matthew 10:34). He told his disciples to sell their garments and buy a sword (Luke 22:36).

Of course, as you say, he also disparaged the use of the sword and warned against its use (Matthew 26:52; Luke 22:49-51; John 18:11).

With respect to the sword that Jesus came to bring, the question is, what kind of sword?

It was, of course the metaphorical sword of divisions. As Jesus continued, he specified interfamilial divisions that would occur as family members become Christians. Jesus knew that confessing Jesus as Messiah and Lord would put them in a difficult position over against the non-Christians who had their own religious convictions. Why Jesus used the metaphor of a sword for this expression is clear. Earlier in this passage (vv. 16ff.) he had in view actual persecution for the confession of Jesus where he said, “21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”

Clearly, the sword that Jesus had come to bring was the sword that would be wielded against Christians by the non-Christian world, not one that would be wielded by Christians.

On the other hand, God’s word is referred to as the “Sword of (i. e., wielded by) the Spirit” (Ephesians 6:17; Cf. Hebrews 4:12) which pierces “even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

So, as you say, Jesus does not approve of armed rebellion. But I hardly think that that is what Hammertime had in mind. He was saying, as I read it, that faith in Christ will inevitably bring divisions which is, unfortunately, pictured here in one Congregation. The saddest thing, for me, is when the ’sword’ of division must be wielded by Christians against Christians but even Jesus allowed that such divisions would occur and permitted that some in the Church might need to be expelled for certain reasons (Matthew 18:15-20).

By Hammertime on May 15, 2005 | Reply

Clearly put, Craig. It’s criminal (well, I guess not literally, but anyway) that this church is using this sword in a strictly political fashion. Thanks for cleaning up my loose comment for me.

SITE ADMIN:

I still can’t see any posts except for the last one posted for each calendar day…except in “topics” on the sidebar. Is that intentional?

By The Bastard on May 16, 2005 | Reply

Isn’t funny how religion has positioned us against them? Why can’t everyone just believe what you want to believe?

Hammer,

I’m not sure what you are talking about can you email me an example? I will try and fix it if there is a problem (sob062571@gmail.com)

By pia on May 17, 2005 | Reply

Hammer have to agree with The Bastard on how religion positions us against each other.

That said–I liked your story