Saved
December 22nd, 2005 | by Dr. Forbush |Some Christians have come to the conclusion that the only way to “be saved” is through Jesus Christ. The point is that Jesus came to Earth and preached his message. He didn’t write down his message, but those who heard his message wrote it down, and we have multiple versions of Jesus’ time on Earth and the message that he preached. The question is: How do we address the message that Jesus left behind for us to follow? What better way to explain what Jesus meant than through a parable. I hope that this parable will lend some insight into what Jesus taught us.
There were two twins from a military family. Their mother had been called up a couple of months ago and their father had just been called up to report on November 1. The two young men were seniors in High School and they really wanted to finish their school year and graduate with their High School classmates. Their father thought that these young men were certainly responsible for their age and capable of living at home for the time that they would be away. They were both 18, which meant that they were legally adults, but they had not been away from home to live on their own. The father created an extensive list of instructions for them to follow. He gave them his e-mail address so that they could communicate with him while he was away. On Halloween the three of them dressed up as ghosts to celebrate the new responsibility that they would all face over the next few months. They all hoped that they would be reunited in June for their graduation. One of the instructions that he gave his sons was that they should eat three meals a day without snacks and exercise at least an hour a day.
The one son followed his father’s advice legalistically. He ate breakfast at 7:00 am everyday. For breakfast he usually ate pancakes or waffles with lots of syrup. He was careful to eat as much as he could, because he feared that he would get hungry before lunch. He ate Lunch at noon every day. He ate grilled ham and cheese, a bag of potato chips and a milk shake. He wanted to pack as many calories as he could so that he wouldn’t get hungry before dinner. He ate dinner at 6:00 pm every day. For dinner he liked to go to Joe’s diner where he spent two hours at the “all you can eat buffet.” He went to the tennis or golf club every day for an hour. Most of the time he stood around and talked with the guys at the club.
The other son believed that it was more important to understand how his body was using its food. This son didn’t worry so much about when he ate. Instead he ate a good mix of food over the entire day. He began to understand how many calories he ate everyday and how many calories he burned in his exercise. When he ran hard for an hour he realized that he could eat a few more calories than when he worked out less strenuously.
The father and mother came home for graduation and there was much rejoicing. The first son was about eighty pounds over weight, while the second son was fit and trim. The father accused the first son of not following his advice, although we all know that he technically did everything that the father had told him. The second son was assumed to have followed the father’s advice although he had not. His father praised him.
This is like the Christians who are getting the message from Jesus. They are told to follow the teachings of Jesus and then they will be saved. But, the Christians are focused on the legalistic implications of what Jesus taught and not the life Jesus wants you to lead. Jesus preached for us to love each other and form a Christian community. Jesus preached the importance of feeding, clothing and housing the poor. Jesus taught us to be peacemakers and to heal disagreements among us. However, the Christians that quote that we need to legalistically be saved through Jesus don’t think about the people that God has inspired in other ways.
The so-called Christians of the religious right create legalistic arguments for why they can cut programs meant to help the poor. They tell us that the government shouldn’t be aiding the poor, but other private organizations should be used to help the poor. The argument is a legalistic argument used to defend the selfish that would rather not spend their money on the poor. So, yesterday they cut 40 billion dollars in assistance to the poor so they could give tax breaks to the wealthy. The point is not how we can legalistically save ourselves money, but how Jesus would want us to have a healthy spiritual life.
But the true Christians know what Jesus meant by his teachings. True Christians know that Jesus wanted us to comfort the lonely, clothe the poor, feed the hungry, care for the sick and love thy neighbor. So, Merry Christmas to the Christians! And, remember what Christmas means, Peace on Earth Good Will to Men. And, Happy Holiday to everyone else…
36 Responses to “Saved”
By pia on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Great parable Dr. Forbush. But I think a bit over most peoples heads.
My faith in people’s intelligence has taken a bit of a dip in the past few weeks
By LiberPaul on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Pia,
Totally off topic but since you are Jewish I have a question; what is the Jewish teachings regarding Hell (maybe its called Sheol)? Is there such a place in the tradition?
Don’t lose all hope Pia, there are plenty of us with most of our brain left…..
By LiberPaul on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
BTW,
Great Post Doc! I have to agree with you but of course the right-wing nuts will just go on and quote a few verses from their precious King James bible to defend their very narrow world-view. For an interesting review of the gospels check this out (it merely confirms your post but from a different angle):
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/how_to_be_saved.html
By Denis O'Callaghan on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Some of a us even attempt to follow the life style of Jesus [a nice Jewish boy]! Good Genes!
By Dr. Forbush on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Pia,
This was my first parable, so it probably shows. But, the point is that we need to be writing in parables to reach those who have trouble grasping abstract concepts. Like the people who comment on your post and quote single one liners to make their point. The problem is that these issues are simply more complicated that single one-liners can explain. But we are in the fast food, instant gratification society and one line answers are sought for beliefs that people already hold and aren’t willing to question. The parable is a simple story used to communicate a complex position on a complex issue. Maybe these people with short attention spans will stick around long enough to read a short story and see the issue in a different light. Then again I may be only dreaming…
LiberPaul,
You are correct, but even when it looks like all is lost we still must find the strength to carry on. There is always hope!
By Josh on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Just fucking brilliant.
By bushleaguer on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Jesus taught us to protect the weak and shelter the poor. But I believe he also wanted us to be responsible for our actions and our lives. Theres a difference between getting someone on their feet and carrying them on your back. Get it. Now how much would you like the wealthy to pay. Since you and I know that they dont deserve to be wealthy, right.
PS Oh Pia you are just so smart. Let me kiss your odorless ass.
By Dr. Forbush on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Bushleager,
Just who deserves to be wealthy? The major flaw in this argument is that it is assumed that the wealthy deserve to be wealthy because they worked hard for their wealthy. This addresses some portion of the first generation wealthy, but it does not address those who inherited their wealth from those who did the hard work. If America was truly a meritocracy everyone would be put to the test and those who did the best would be paid the most. Even this doesn’t work, because some jobs earn more money for less work. Being able to manipulate capital markets tends to pay the highest legal wages, while drug traffickers tend to make even more illegally. Selling arms to third world countries tends to pay quite a bit as well. Then again talented artists and writers only make money if they focus on addressing the expectations of the popular culture and ignoring the explorations of rarely explored human emotions.
Based on the current system, those who inherit money, win the lotto, manipulate markets and capitalize on greed deserve to be wealthy. The rest of us manage to make a reasonable living and should be happy with our current existence. The poor on the other hand don’t have any political power and no one pays attention to them, so what can they do to contribute to the popular culture?
By LiberPaul on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
bushleager,
I have to disagree with your statement:
“Theres a difference between getting someone on their feet and carrying them on your back.”
I think Jesus was quite specific about our duty to the poor and it wasn’t “FUCK THEM”! You right-wing nuts apparently can’t read or have chosen not to read the Gospels of Mathew, Mark and Luke. John’s gospel is way to contradictory to the other three to be considered….
“In Matthew, we find that heaven is promised, first, to the poor in spirit. Second, to the merciful. Third, to the pure in heart. Fourth, to the peacemakers. Fifth, to those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake. Sixth, to those who keep and teach the commandments. Seventh, to, those who forgive men that trespass against them. Eighth, that we will be Judged as we Judge others. Eighth, that they who receive prophets and righteous men shall receive a prophet’s reward. Tenth, to those who do the will of God. Eleventh, that every man shall be rewarded according to his works. Twelfth, to those who become as little children. Thirteenth, to those who forgive the trespasses of others. Fourteenth, to the, perfect: they who sell all that they have and give to the poor. Fifteenth, to them who forsake houses, and brethren, and sisters, and father, and mother, and wife, and children, and lands for the sake of Christ’s name, sixteenth, to those who feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter to the stranger, clothes to the naked, comfort to the sick, and who visit the prisoner.” - Robert Ingersoll
from:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/how_to_be_saved.html
By bushleaguer on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
I will give my time and charity to those who cannot help themselves. But those who just refuse to help themselves can kiss my ass.
By LiberPaul on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
That’s just what Jesus would have done…..
By LiberPaul on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Let it be known; Jesus was a republican:
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/
see the Thursday, December 22, 2005 entry
By Daedalus on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Amen. And that’s all I have to say about that.
By Treason on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Dr. Forbush,
Sorry but I didn’t read the post because I know I’m going to hell! But I’m sure it was written very well. Look foward to your next post:)
By The Bastard on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Has anyone fowarded this to James Dobson? Pat Robertson and any of the other fuckers of the MeMeMe society?
I’m all for hard work and it paying of but don’t people realize that sometimes it just doesn’t happen?
Doesn’t anyone realize that if you don’t address that side of society that you just promote crime because eventually, with all the laws on the book, these people will resort to whatever it takes to survive, it’s just human nature?
Almost like the poor black kid in the sixties that got 20 years for stealing bread to feed his sister. He was bad because he needed to eat. HE should have gotten a fucking job they say but they never tried being black in the south.
Or more recently I saw a story on CNN of an ex-convict who got out of jail for aggrevated assault, went to college, graduated at the top of his class and then no one would hire him because of his past criminal record. He ended up homeless and could have resorted back to crime because society forced him to but he resisted and luckily came out on top. He paid his debt to society the way it was written yet society insisted on punishing him some more.
Point being is that some people will no doubt abuse the systme but I think they are few. Any way why should an innocent person be brought down because you want to reflect on the bad and punush the bad?
By bushleaguer on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Well I guess anyone can fuck up their lives because good uncle sam is gonna be there to fix everything. And no jesus would not say that. I on the other hand would because I am not jesus christ.
By Mobile Yuppie on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Good stuff! I’m passing this on to my GOP soon-to-no-longer-be-my friends.
By bushleaguer on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
“The Lord helps those who help themselves”
By The Bastard on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Busleaguer, I watched a man today on TV proclaim that it was the worst day of his life, why? Becasue he couldn’t get his little drilling party passed through congress. No need to mention that it was found that the drilling would yield at most 10 million barrels of oil. That is enough oil for two whole years! Matter of national security, I think not!
So why was it his worst day? I just saw a picture of Bush visited an amputee vet, what kind of day do you think that kid is gonna have?
And on that note, if you see this kid on the street ten years from now begging for money, do you cast him aside as someone not holding up there end of the bargain? Call him pathetic because he’s holding a sign that says “War vet and hungry” but you can’t prove it?
I work in NYC and see that all the time, being a vet my self I used to give anybody that had a sign like that money, but then realized that a lot of people had signs like that and thought to my self “they all can’t be vets” so I stopped giving.
I started giving again because you know what, a quarter even a dollar is not much to lose on a bet if at least the one real vet gets my help.
No take this and equate it to the gazillionaires of the world. It is nothing for them to help, yep some are gonna take advantage of it but at least you know for a fact that you are helping people.
By Dr. Forbush on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Bushleager,
Thanks for the example of a one-liner that doesn’t shed any light, but is used to support your own selfish greed…
By Liberal Army Wife on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Bushleaguer shows us the Republican motto is still there: I got mine, screw you. How depressing.
By ken grandlund on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
The problem is that we have had generations of people raised on the “Me First” mentality coupled with a notion of American superiority in all things. Add to that a half understood religious concept like Christianity and you see why we are where we are.
Nice parable too by the way, but unfortunately, we can see that those who choose to think only of themselves and why “we” should rule the world will never really get this on their own. Sadly, they will have to be marginalized if we are ever to experience anything remotely like peace on earth and goodwill to all.
By The Cranky Liberal on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Hey Bushleager
Nice quote about the Lord, to bad it has no biblical origins what so ever. Jesus himself might actually disagree with that thought. He might put it that the Lord helps those who help others, since Jesus was such a merciful and charitable man. He might say that the Lord helps those who repent and trust in his benevolence, since Jesus was a humble man. But no Bushleaguer, much like the legalistic mumbo-jumbo the good Doc was so happy to remind us of today - your turn of phrase isn’t biblical, spiritual or Christian.
It is however Republican.
By Steve on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Reverend Dr. Martin Luther Forbush:
I got my own parable. But it’s a famous one that I didn’t write. And I don’t even have to tell you the full story because you know the story, but I will tell it for everybody: Aesop’s Tortoise and the Hare.
You see there was this rabbit. And he thought he was so fast and smart. And with this swiftness also came a bit of arrogance. You see, the rabbit thought there was nothing better than him, faster than him, smarter than him. This rabbit supposedly knew it all. This made the turtle mad. So the turtle decided to challenge the rabbit to a race. The rabbit though the turtle was inferior, dumb, slow, etc. So he says why not. The race starts and the turtle heads off. The rabbit just sleeps. We wakes up and then decides to have breakfast. Then after a while he sees the turtle half way across the trail. The rabbit started to take another nap and would just wait until the turtle was close to the finish line and just zoom past the line. The rabbit slept too long and it got dark and he rushed his way to the finish line when he saw the turtle close. The rabbit ran and lept as fast as he could but it was too late. The turtle beat him.
My point of bringing this to your attention is this is what you liberals are doing. You are the rabbit. You think you have all the right answers. The right ways to live. You say things like fuck the rich, pull out of Iraq, we’ll never win the war, Bush is a shrub, Dick is a dick, wanna be Christian this, tight ass Republican that. It goes on and on like a trail of diarrhea from a sick baby’s ass. George Bush and the Republicans have been slow and consistent from day one. They put together a plan and look, you won’t admit it, but Mr. Bush is succeeding, just like the turtle. He put his foot down and did what he said he’d do. All you liberals do is poke fun at the man, cast blame, say you can do it better like there is no tomorrow. You use a tremendous amount of speculation to make a point. You do it all with out a regiment or plan. There is no focus. It’s all a scatter brain plan that pokes fun at this and that. The rabbit represents you. Quick minded, all the ability: No plan. This is exactly why you lose elections. You run, ridicule, think you are better, will yourself to the gate and can’t finish. Your party is a joke. Just like the rabbit. All the ability: No plan.
You have a lot of gall picking apart Christianity like you just did. Have you ever stopped to think that instead of rich and poor that the world revolves around a closely linked set of paradigms? You cannot expect to wave a magic wound, wake up people and break cycles. Change occurs slowly, not quick like the rabbit. For example, you know this and see it too, Forbush because you live in California. There was a big divide north and south in our state, republicans on one side, the Democrats on the other. What happened? Economic progress. People moved to the interior of the state. They weren’t rich either! But they are Republican. The rich are on the cities and on the coast where the cost of living is high and extravagant. Your parable equates the rich as being Christian and the poor as being nothing. Well guess what, I live in a valley town. I know what the poor look like: Catholic! And I know what the rich look like: Atheist, liberals in San Francisco.
Don’t dismiss my observations here as stupid, under-educated and fallable. I have been reading this shit on BIO for 9 months. I think I am well educated in what you people are doing!
By treason on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Dr. Forbush wrote:
“Bushleager,
Thanks for the example of a one-liner that doesn’t shed any light, but is used to support your own selfish greed…”
__________________________________________________
Dr. Forbush, thanx for the example of running away at the mouth that doesn’t shed any light, but is used to support your own bullshit!
Wow, Dictator Forbush!
_________________________________________________
Dr. Forbush wrote: “Some Christians……..”
Key word……SOME
Follow????
Of course not!!!
By bushleaguer on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Well my chinese zodiac says im the selfish rooster, but give me a break. I am making a distinction between those who need the system and those who abuse it.
“your turn of phrase isn’t biblical, spiritual or Christian.”
No, but it does inspire me.
By Steve on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Treason,
The best Forbush one liner was one he left on my blog last year. I was poking fun at BuyBlue.org or something and he came in a ripped me a new one. On the way out he says,
“Step it up or you’ll never make it to the next level.” I about laughed my ass off.
I wish haloscan comments would stay longer. All these guys hit me on that one. It was my first comment fest. Went up to like 80!
By The Bastard on Dec 22, 2005 | Reply
Steve, ::spit::
By Liberal Jarhead on Dec 23, 2005 | Reply
What is Christianity? A lot of people who argue about it haven’t even checked with each other to see whether they’re talking about the same thing.
I believe that religion is to spirituality as a bottle is to water - but not all bottles contain water, and water can be carried in lots of other kinds of containers.
Religions are human-created systems meant to help people achieve spirituality - the sane ones all seem to boil down to the same principles: be kind, be honest, empathize, try to make the lives of those around you better because you’re there. Can’t go wrong with those, whether you consider yourself Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, or a believer in any other path.
When I hear two people arguing, and each insisting that his/her religion is THE right one, I get a mental picture of two guys in a parking lot in Balboa Park in San Diego. They both want to get to Times Square in New York, and each has a map with a route marked in red, and each is yelling that the other’s map is wrong because it doesn’t match his. How many routes are there, actually?
The problems come up when people are using the same word, be it Christianity or Islam or Judaism or liberalism or conservatism, but thinking of different meanings.
Problems come up when people let their laziness and fearfulness control them, or are developmentally stuck. The laziness leads them to forget that as human creations, all religions are flawed, and any person who claims to really understand God is a fool - including that pompadoured twit with the horrible wardrobe who’s on TV telling us God needs us to send him our money.
It’s lazy and cowardly to expect a cookbook approach to achieving spirituality - say this prayer eleven times a day; dress up and go sit in that building from 9:30 to 11:00 every Sunday; give such and such an amount of money to those folks; put my left foot in, put my left foot out, put my left foot in and shake it all about - just don’t ask me to think, or to take responsibility for interpreting and applying fundamental principles. I want to go to Heaven and drive a Beemer and never have to work or suffer anymore, and if good things happen to me it must mean God likes me, and if bad things happen He must be kicking my ass. Basically the same kind of thinking as wearing my lucky socks when I go bowling or tossing virgins into volcanoes to improve the weather.
I spent a fair amount of time on this in grad school - pretty interesting, especially when you keep it in mind while watching people’s antics.
Normal human beings go through stages of moral development as we grow up. There’s an early stage where children are very literal - rules are pretty concrete, and are to be followed, not questioned; if you break the rules and get caught, you’re bad and get punished, and if you follow the rules, you’re good and get a prize. God has to be everywhere, always watching, so if you break His rules you’ll get caught and you’ll be bad. He knows if you’ve been bad or good, so be good, for goodness’ sake. Religion for four-year-olds, all about concrete reward and punishment. There’s also an element of spite that gets tied in when it turns into, “I’m going to Heaven and you’re not, nyahh nyahh!” That’s based on resentment, spite, and envy, not on virtue.
If we keep growing we reach a stage where we want to do what’s right for its own sake, regardless of whether we think we’ll get caught; where we try to understand the reason behind the rule and apply it intelligently, rather than following it by rote. We’re good to others because we work at seeing life through their eyes and so if they hurt, we hurt; it’s not about escaping Hell, it’s about respecting ourselves and giving to the world. But the pioneers of psychology estimate that most people don’t get to that stage.
Hopefully, we also get humble and outgrow the dreaded “teenager’s disease”, that syndrome of being so sure about everything. When my daughter was a teenager, she used to roll her eyes and sneer when I would say, “I don’t know,” or “I might be mistaken”, or “the older I get, the more I know how little I know.” Now she understands what I meant and we laugh about some of the conversations we had.
Just my opinion, but I can’t see how material wealth and power have much to do with spirituality; but how we treat each other has everything to do with it. My job is to do what I can to make the world a better place, meaning improving the quality of life of whoever I can. That’s why I’m a liberal or progressive or whatever the term of the day is; because although I don’t know the nature or thoughts of God, I believe God, and the teachings of Christ, and the Buddha, and a lot of others, say that the way to be the best person I can is to be generous and empathic, and to think about things and make decisions and take responsibility for them. So that’s what I try to remember to do, as much of the time as I can.
In one of the two basic books used in Alcoholics Anonymous, there’s an account of a time early in the program’s existence when the founders were trying to decide whether to let a man in who gave them the heebie-jeebies because he was weird in a lot of ways and they had major issues with his lifestyle. One man finally asked the others, “What would the Master do?” and that settled the argument. I can’t imagine any situation where the God of my understanding would want me to harden my heart to another’s suffering, or to exploit others and dehumanize them in my thinking, or to be mean or cause unnecessary fear or hurt. I screw up and do those things sometimes, but when I catch myself, I know I’m wrong and I need to say so and make it right as best I can.
By Dr. Forbush on Dec 23, 2005 | Reply
Thanks for the great insight into the general concept of religion. I agree with your observation. I just heard a talk yesterday by Sam Harris who has a book out called “The End of Faith” which discusses this issue in detail.
Thanks again for the comment…
By The Small Town Hick on Dec 23, 2005 | Reply
One of the more interesting parables told by Jesus was about the Pharisee in the temple - you remember, the one where the pharisee comes in and thanks God for making him rich and influential, unlike the dirty little sinner beside him. Meanwhile, the dirty little sinner just asks for forgiveness.
Jesus said the sinner got forgiveness, while the pharisee got little or none.
Many on the right wing, like Bushwacker above, are pharisees. They trumpet their Christianity, based on the fact that they go to church regularily and protest the secularization of Christmas. However, they do not follow Christ’s teachings unless it suits them.
Jesus would have given aid to people whether they abused the system or not, whether they worked to make something of themselves or not. He spent his life amongst thieves, peasants, and at least one terrorist. He helped them all.
When we appear before HIM at the end of times, HE will not ask whether we helped uphold the system - the system will be gone. HE will not ask whether you helped your country - the country will be dust. He will ask whether you helped poor souls.
Star working on your replies now, folks. Merry Christmas.
By bushleaguer on Dec 23, 2005 | Reply
Ah well I do not go to church regularly and I do not do everything that Jesus probably would. I see how this has upset you which means I have done my part. I have however helped and will continue to help poor souls. I live between Hartford Conn. and Springfield Mass., the two cespools of New England. I guess that Bush giving out more would fix everything right. It comes down to the responsibility of our citizens and the compassion of our neighboors and communities. You cant just blame the government and then call them fools for not following all the teachings of Jesus Christ. Governments have ultimatley failed in preventing poverty and they always will. So why depend on them?
By Steve on Dec 24, 2005 | Reply
The problem all of you have here is that you are associating wealth with religion. The two are not synonymous. If they were we wouldn’t have a poor South.
Speaking of the South, the majority of African Americans in the 4 big states, CA, NY FL and TX, and the South 54%
The African American population’s poverty rate is twice the national average at 24%. But then you look at this other startling number, 18% of white kids are born to poverty out of wedlock where as a staggering 64% are black! Then there is this one showing percentage of people having religious transformations. Note 23% in New England 60% of the South!
Where is this Christianity’s fault Dr. Forbush? The poorer black regions of this country are more religious then the rest of your rich, Republican assholes than you bitch and holler about. Your population in poverty is growing because of the infidelity in the African American population and then are the religious ones! The reason I bring this all up is because your little saved parable about Republicans is a total farce. You are missing all the facts completely on this one. And guess what you didn’t cite any facts.
I believe the problem in this country is the lack of sex education within our black population. I am not suggesting what the Brook article points out there about the serious disproportionate numbers on kids born out of wedlock between white and black in relation to this country’s welfare program. The lack of sex education comes from the religious practices not necessarily the race.
This “Saved” post has been bugging me the last few days because I believe it to simply be untrue. You have the wrong assumptions regarding the Republican Party.
By Dr. Forbush on Dec 24, 2005 | Reply
Steve,
The Republican Party is a coalition of social conservatives and fiscal conservatives. Fiscal conservatives are normally the wealthy who want to preserve their wealth and pass it down to their kids. This is a small number of people with a large amount of money and that money translates into influence. Social Conservatives are a large number of people who basically want the government to pass religious laws to control people’s behavior. These are your religious right. Obviously these two groups agree to look the other way when their paths cross. The religious right reads the Bible in such a way that greed is no longer considered a sin and fiscal conservatives look the other way when the religious right wants to borrow lots of money to fight religious wars. Obviously the two are not the same, but if we can make the two groups look at each other we force them to see their hypocrisy.
By Ray Dubuque on Dec 24, 2005 | Reply
Excellent way of communicating a great insight, Dr. My own experience of Christian fundies is that they betray their real identity by constantly quoting not JESUS of Nazareth, but PAUL of Tarsus. Even what they say about Jesus is often what PAUL said about Jesus, rather than what Jesus himself said. And as for SALVATION, our http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/forsalvation shows the tremendous contrast between what Jesus said about the importance of WORKS, and what Paul said about salvation by FAITH.
Thank you for being among the 200+ sites that link to our http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ and /or http://JesusNoRepublican.Org/ sites.
By steve (Xmas Baby) on Dec 25, 2005 | Reply
Well hey Forbush, since you put it that way…
Merry Christmas…
Yeah but you can say the same thing about liberals. You have a group of liberals who want to redeem themselves by “saving the environment, the world, and the poor” yet can’t agree on one plan how to make it happen, embrace the irrationalness of some of those plans and has to have everything proven before it can it exist. They’re bogged down by statistics that only fit their agenda and then you have… well shit I guess that’s it.