Do Unto Others
June 27th, 2006 | by Omnipotent Poobah |
My recent post on Gay Pride Day festivities generated a little heat at Bring It On. “Sandy” said she found the event “revolting” and cited her belief in the Bible as justification. I’m not surprised at comments like hers. In fact, they’re depressingly predictable and Sandy’s followed a rather predictable path. However, they did get me thinking about religious arguments and how they play out.
I don’t think anyone can seriously deny the Bible, Koran, Torah, and most other religious books are great works of literature. They are full of stories designed not only to entertain, but also teach, and that’s what makes them so amazingly successful. I also don’t think that anyone can seriously deny that most of the events they chronicle have at least some grounding in fact, even if they’ve been coated in a heavy metaphorical layer. Like the Constitution, they are infinitely malleable and subject to almost any interpretation. That is both their beauty and weakness.
Proof of this ability to interpret diversely is shown by the believers themselves. They have endless arguments, and sometimes wars, over who’s interpretation is right or wrong and all seem to believe God is directly behind whatever interpretation they espouse. Fundamentalist Christians have the same slavish allegiance to their principles as fundamentalist Muslims. Each claims ironclad proof the other is an infidel and there’s not much objective evidence to prove the point either way. Meanwhile, they kill each other and drag the rest of us along for the ride.
While the religious are certainly free to say what they want, it seems to me there’s always a fatal flaw in their arguments - they almost never include clear logic. I can’t count the number of times that the more zealously religious accuse their enemies of something that is wholly in their own head. For example, Sandy seems to think that gays are out to “inherit the kingdom of God”. That statement seems to suggest there is a gay plot to take over Sandy’s religious beliefs when I doubt any gay person wants to be part of her religious circle anyway.
Christian zealots often claim to “love the sinner, but hate the sin” while in the next breath saying the most vile things about the sinner. Verbally, and sometimes physically, assaulting someone you love seems a odd to me. How can someone “love” the sinner if their position is that the sinner is the scourge of the Earth?
Religious discussions often alight on the idea of the zealous being offended by the sinners. I could lay an equal claim to be offended by their words, but I would never demand they not be allowed to say them. In fact, this is a principle I learned during my own religous education - “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
It seems a shame to me that belief systems created with a general sense of goodwill have become so perverted. It’s a shame that those like Sandy have become so close-minded and hateful. And the biggest shame of all is that their own perversions are the biggest threat to their beliefs. The great religious books are full of cautionary tales about the consequences of acting this way. It’s just a pity the zealous don’t read them a little more often. Perhaps if they did, we’d live in a world where the principles of all religions could carry the day and make it a better, more wholesome place for all of us.
Amen.
Cross Posted at The Omnipotent Poobah Speaks!
[tag]religion, tolerance, crapweasels, brint+it+on, omnipotent+poobah[/tag]
17 Responses to “Do Unto Others”
By Dusty on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Bill Moyers has a new show on PBS about religion. I missed the first show and probably the best, it was Salman Rushdi. This show will explore different religions and their impact on the global society.
Everyone has the right to believe in their own personal version of God. They do not have the right to inflict that view on me, or anyone else by the means of legislating it. Morality can not and should not be legislated. Moral questions are for the individual and their God..no one else.Only God has the right to judge us morally..and he will eventually.
The interpretations of what the Bible says are never-ending as are the religions that interpret it. The bible does preach tolerance and love and understanding..none of which come into play when someone is attempting to legislate their personal views on a moral issue.
For me, its always the God-fearing bunch that scream the loudest about moral issues like gays and gay marriage or abortions. I belong to the God-loving bunch that find strength in knowing that God made us imperfect and never expected perfection from us for one minute after the whole garden of eden debacle(snark alert). No one is without sin..therefore they can not cast the first stone. But the bible-thumping rightwingers fail to remember this part of Jesus’s teachings and throw stones daily at those that do not adhere to THEIR interpretation of the bible.
Basically the rightwing bible thumpers screaming about gays and abortions are no better than the person whom they are attacking..but somehow they miss that point too. We are all equal in gods eyes. Human eyes..well, thats a different story.
There is a HUGE difference between a Theocracy and a Democracy. We are living with an administration that is changing from one to the other..but only if we let them. We can stop them at the voting booth this november. And maybe then, the haters that masqerade as religious people will crawl back under the rocks they came out from under. We can only hope.
By Paul Merda on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
OP, Dusty,
The way I see the religious right is as modern day pharisees, hypocrites that Jesus was doing battle against during his time here. They are always interested in the “letter of the law” and not the spirit of these laws. You can see this disfunction all the way up at the top, after all, how many GOP’ers are this right wing type and how many are corrupt?? Extremism of any stripe is a horror…
Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man. …Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. — Thomas Jefferson
By Sandy on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
You have distorted my opinion. I don’t HATE anyone except satan. I’m not one of those Westboro guys either. Homosexuality and sodomy are wrong. Plain and simple. Most of America agrees. And I’m a bit perplexed that such macho men around here are defending homosexuality. EWWW….
Anyone gay or straight that does not seek the kingdom is just going to be an utter failure at life. Our time here on earth is just a nanosecond in history.
Faith is the opposite of logic. You can’t see faith. You just have it. Or not.
The Bible is the handbook for everyday life. Not just “literature.”
And you can flame me all you want. The “hateful,bigot” schtick is getting old. I stand by my posts.
By Jet Netwal on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Sandy, men who are comfortable with their sexuality aren’t homophobic. There’s nothing “Ewww” about it. That comment suggestst that if they are rampaging against homosexuality, they are normal. What I think is if they are is uncomfortable with the subject, they probably have some curiosity about it. People are sexual. We’re wired that way.
By ann on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
My family (macho hubby, children and all) and I unintentionally got caught up in the Gay Pride Parade on a recent trip to Stockholm and: it was bloody marvellous. The atmosphere; the colours; the music; the dancing; the unity… every part of it. One of the many highlights of our trip. Would go to another event like that in a heartbeat.
The problem with you, Sandy, IMO, is that YOU have a distorted opinion of the world (and a distorted interpertation of Christianity) and, it’s opinions like yours that are “wrong” as they spread hatered. And, even with my, happily diminishing, memories of ’Christianity’ that isn’t the word - or even a word - of the Lord.
Peace. Love. Understanding…you remember?
By tos on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
As much as I find Sandy amusing I am going to agree with Jet that people that are comfortable with their sexuality are not homophobic. Actually I think that people,especially men that are homophobic feel somehow threatened by gay people. I also think it’s less of a religious belief and more of a cultural,macho thing.
By Dusty on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Sandy, where do you get off speaking for “most” of American? Because “they” believe what two consenting adults do in the privacy of a bedroom is none of YOUR damn business! That means sodomy isn’t wrong in their eyes.That means sodomy is a personal choice..you get it now?
How dare you attempt to make this a sexual issue. That is the problem with religious wingnuts, they frame the situation to their advantage. The issue of gay rights is about people, not what they do when they go to bed together.
I am sick to death of your kind of people..religious zealots making this about sex. America has gotten past that..you and your sick friends have not. Its not your business or anyone else’s business what two consenting adults do. When will you realize that?
“Anyone gay or straight that does not seek the kingdom is just going to be an utter failure at life. Our time here on earth is just a nanosecond in history.”–That isn’t your call, its God’s call, once again your religious bias rears its ugly head. Its none of your damn business who is a failure and who isn’t. and to toss your friggin religious beliefs into it makes me sick. Its not up to you to judge anyone on that level, or any other level. When will you realize that? I know plenty of people that are not “seeking the kingdom” as you put it and woman, they are far from failures. God will judge them on their merits when their time comes..NOT YOU! Your holier-than-thou attitude sickens me. I am a god-loving person who prays and I will pray for your eyes to finally see what god wants from you here on earth. To love, tolerate and be a good human being while you are here. He will then judge you when you attempt to enter his kingdom and as far as I cantell, by your pathetic,hate-mongering diatribes, you won’t be getting in, they will laugh you out of the place.
Your no better than the money-changers that Jesus ran out of the temple.
By Paul Merda on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Sandy,
Sorry, I am not buying what you are selling.
Sodomy? Does that include fellatio, cunnilingus and anal sex with my wife? Is that wrong?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sodomy
Sorry, I am an infidel, I don’t believe in any of the hocus-pocus bullshit known as religion, yet I would have to say that I am fairly successful at life what was your point with that non-sequiter?
Damn right I have NO faith in god the bible or whatever else you think I should, I don’t put faith in an unprovable hypothesis…
I am about as “macho” as they come Sandy, yet, I still feel that people in this country are allowed to live in whatever way they want as long as they are not stopping others from living the way the want or are harming anyone in the process. It’s called Freedom Sandy….
“Freedom isn’t about protecting things you love, its about protecting things that you hate” - Larry Flint
By ken grandlund on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Sandy says, “And I’m a bit perplexed that such macho men around here are defending homosexuality.”
I’ve a favorite saying Sandy that could clarify something for you. It is an old Indian (as in American Indian) proverb…
“Nothing is as strong as gentleness. Nothing so gentle as true strength.”
I’ll leave you to think on that a bit, and what it means to those of us who aren’t so caught up in ideologically sanctioned hatred and discrimination that we can’t feel for other human beings as we’d like them to feel for us.
By Dusty on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
I would just like to give Sandy a quote from her favorite book:
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
So, take your self-righteous bullshit and take a hike, because with all the venomous garbage you spew you won’t be walking through those pearly gates you so dearly covet.
By Paul Watson The Cranky Brit on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Dusty, chill. Arguing with god-bots is like trying to teach a gorilla to fly. You know that. Let Sandy take her bigoted ass back under her bridge before the Billy Goats Gruff turn up to deal with her.
Oh, and Sandy, take a look at the dictionary definition of bigot. I think you’ll find is describes you rather well.
By Dusty on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
I am sorry Paul if my posts upset you. I will argue with the hate-mongers with my last breath. They give good, god-loving people a bad name. The hate-mongers are killing our country and I will not stand silently by and watch. Nothing, other than animal abuse, gets me riled more than hate-mongering.
By Paul Watson The Cranky Brit on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Dusty,
I’m not upset at all. But banging your head against this particular wall is a waste of effort. But if venting makes you feel better, go for it.
Personally, I think people are being too nice to Sandy, but I’m not as tolerant of intolerance, especially religious or other unthinking intolerance, as I could be.
By Dusty on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Beleive me Paul when I say if this was on my personal blog..I would not mince words with the Hate-mongering Sandy. But I defer to civility here..its like being in someone else’s home, you are polite and behave but still make your points.
By Paul Watson The Cranky Brit on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Oh, I understand, and as I deleted half-a-dozen replies for being too nasty, I know exactly where you’re coming from. Some issues are just hard to say without frothing a bit. Relgious extremism is one of those because you can’t argue with it.
I’ll say it again: I have no problem with God, I’m sure he’s a wonderful being, but He needs to have words with the bastards he’s got claiming to represent Him on Earth, because they are letting the guy down badly.
By ann on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
My wise old grandmother says you should always look for the good in everyone. So, Sandy is a girl? K. That’s the good bit over. It’s a shame she’s also a sexually repressed, bible-thumping republican who “hates” Satan (who appears to have infested the White House and her beloved party, apparently, right under her unwitting, turned-up nose) and who’s just hurtling on through on her way to (a-hem) “the Kingdom of Heaven”.
Dear, dear, dear…
Seems to me Sandy has a lot more that should concern her (the condition of her party; the state of her religion, the state of her eyes…) far more than a few gay people (which probably includes about half her clergy) prancing about in feather boa’s on the streeets once in a while.
By Omnipotent Poobah on Jun 27, 2006 | Reply
Man, I don’t check in during the day and the whole place blows up!
Good comments all, even from you Sandy. I don’t agree with a word you said, but you’re entitled to your beliefs.
I’d just like to point something out Sandy: There were a few today who would have gladly torn you limb from metaphorical limb. They’re as impassioned about their beliefs as you are of yours. What you say about faith is quite true, “You can’t see faith. You just have it. Or not.”
I think what these folks are trying to tell you is that they don’t have faith in the ugly “faith” you - not God or the Bible - describe. I know several of them are strong believers and have strong faith in God, yet there is still a disagreement.
To use your words, “our time here on earth is just a nanosecond in history,” and I think what these people are trying to tell you is just that. At the end of the day, those who have faith will get their just rewards. Hopefully, they will get their rewards based on the good they did. Your reward for your faith I’m not so sure about. Hopefully, it won’t be as bad as I imagine it may very well be. But, good luck. I thkink you’re going to need it.