Carter to debate Dershowitz…
December 21st, 2006 | by Craig R. Harmon |So the renowned Middle East expert, Jimmy Carter, recently wrote a book: Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. Carter has already been accused of plagiarism, specifically of lifting several maps without attribution. In addition, Alan Dershowitz writes:
“Carter’s book has been condemned as “moronic” (Slate), “anti-historical” (The Washington Post), “laughable” (San Francisco Chronicle), and riddled with errors and bias in reviews across the country.”
Carter has complained that he has been refused to be allowed to speak by several Universities with high concentration of Jewish students, although he refuses to name those Universities, leading to suspicions that he’s lying. At least one University, Brandeise, however, HAS envited Carter to speak about his book in debate with Alan Dershowitz. He’s refused, leading Dershowitz to suspect that Carter’s flat out afraid of having the nonsense in his book exposed for the lies that they are and Carter exposed for the anti-semitic ass-hole that he is.
Okay, I’m taking liberties here. Dershowitz doesn’t characterize the refusal in quite those terms. I do though.
The reasons Carter gives for refusing to debate is that he sees no reason to debate with someone, Dershowitz, who knows nothing about the issues. Dershowitz, who’s been to Israel and the Middle East far more often than Carter and who has written three books on the subject, thinks that’s a cop out. So do I.
Is that the sound of Georgian chickens I hear clucking in the distance?
16 Responses to “Carter to debate Dershowitz…”
By steve on Dec 21, 2006 | Reply
America’s greatest president… NOT!!!
By daveinboca on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Carter is the sneaky dwarf who went to the USSR in ‘83 to offer Brezhnev’s gang some materials on Ronald Reagan [as did desperate girl-drowner Teddy the Fat]. Carter lied about the professor at Emory being gone for ‘13 years’ when the Professor quit last month.
Carter’s book is packed with left-wing lies and exaggerations and this coward knows the Dershowitz would deconstruct the lil peanut farmer as the fraud he is.
SNL had a great five-second imitation of him before they said “Shut up, you’ve been living off Camp David for 30 years. And that ended up a failure except for Egypt.
The peanut-brain didn’t mention Arafat’s refusal to Clinton and Barak in 2000. Probably forgot or didn’t notice at the time!
By Mickey Finn on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Allen Dershowitz’s recent attacks on Human Rights Watch for their criticism of Israeli targeting of civilians in Lebanon and his attacks on Carter are of a piece. It is now taboo to criticize the policies of the nation of Israel in America. Attacking HRC and Carter seem to be a deliberate strategy intended to suggest that both the organization and the former president have not simply made errors but that their reporting reflects deep bias against Israel and, if Dershowitz, Abraham Foxman, and others are to be believed, against Jews.
By SteveIL on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Mickey Finn,
Carter is against Jews, as well as Israel. Maybe if he actually put, you know, facts, into his book, it probably wouldn’t have been called by its current title.
As far as HRW, the Hezbollah pigs launch their weapons from within civilian areas. What you are saying is that it is acceptable for terrorists to commit acts of terrorism against Israeli civilians when the terrorists are attacking from their own bases that are located in civilian areas.
By Jersey McJones on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Oh God, Craig, don’t tell me you fell for that insipid “plaguerism” charge! He got the maps from public sources in the library! Jesus H Christ! Do you have any idea just how many “similar” maps of that region have been produced??? C’mon!!!
And Carter has had more dealings with the powers that be in the Middle East than Dershowitz EVER had! So Alan visited a lot? Who cares? Carter got Egypt and Israel to sit down and make peace that lasts to this day! No other president has EVER done that much for the region!
And Carter may not have been a great president (he was powerless), but he was certainly among the greatest human beings to ever set foot in the White House - a HELL of a lot more than anyone could say about the sleazy morons the cons have been putting in office for the past generation!
JMJ
By Craig R. Harmon on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Jersey, I said he was accused of plagiarism by the guy who made maps that look an awful lot like the ones in Carter’s book. I didn’t say Carter plagiarized them, I said he’s been accused of it. I’ve seen nothing that proves otherwise. We’re not just talking about maps of the region, talking about maps that show borders, borders that don’t actually exist, borders that would exist if those borders were accepted as per some agreement or other. Now why would there be public domain maps of borders that don’t actually exist? Maps other than the maps that the guy who drew the maps in the first place? That cartographer is the one who has raised the charge. Maybe you’re right, I don’t know but the charge has been raised and I reported that. If I see something that shows, from publicly available sources, the maps in Carter’s book, I’ll be glad to report that.
Carter purportedly wrote the book to start a debate. Fine. Let him debate. Dershowitz is no half-wit. He’s a scholar and author of books of his own on the region. There’s no excuse other than cowardice to turn down a debate that he pretends to want.
By Jersey McJones on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
I can’t believe, Craig, that you would stoop to continuing that sleazy rumor.
Dershowitz is a brilliant legal, philosophical, theological mind - but when it comes to Israel, he is a Zionist and all reason goes out the window. It’s exactly what Carter points out about the debate in his book - all reason goes out the window when we debate Israel.
JMJ
By Craig R. Harmon on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Jersey,
If it is nothing more than a sleazy rumor, you have the proof that it is not true. Pony up.
Exactly. Dershowitz is brilliant. Your assertion that “all reason goes out the window” when Israel is raised is exactly that: an assertion. Assertions, not backed up with facts are worthless. There is one way to prove conclusively who is right, Carter or Dershowitz: debate. Debate that Carter is running away from as fast as his chicken-little legs can carry him. If Carter is right, he should have no problem debating Dershowitz if for no other reason than to shut him up.
Only cowards run away from debate.
By Jersey McJones on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Craig, you are breaking the laws of debate. One does not have to disprove and accusation, one must prove an accusation, unless you’d prefer Sharia law.
Carter:
So, I’ll tell you what - you ask the former Swedish Prime Minister, okay? It took me all of 5 seconds to look that up, though I happened to have previously heard his response to the accusations - which are sleazy, petty and underhanded - once again proving that reason goes out the window when Israel is the subject of debate.
As for assertions - that’s what ALL of this is about - Carter’s of Israel, Dershowitiz’ of Carter’s book, you of my belief that when that when speaking of Israel reason goes out the window. This whole thing is about assertions. Take them out, and you may as well have posted a blank page.
JMJ
By Craig R. Harmon on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Jersey,
I have made no assertions to the effect that Carter has committed plagiarism. I have taken notice of an accusation that has been made to that effect. Here is a write-up on the
rumorcontroversy from the L. A. Times. I guess that, if it’s perfectly alright for a big time newspaper to take notice of the controversy, it’s perfectly alright for me to do so as well, don’t you think? Here is a discussion of the disputed maps which lay the two side by side for comparison. Now remember, these are not maps showing existing borders, which pretty much blows your “commonly available” claim out of the water, but hypothetical borders based upon borders that were negotiated but never put into effect, borders that were drawn by Dennis Ross, maps that, before he drew them, did not exist anywhere on the planet. In short, borders that have no reason to appear on any publicly available map since such a map would be misleading for any other purpose than to show hypothetical borders that do not yet exist.You, Jersey, were the one that claimed (comment #05):
That is an assertion of fact. Very well. Point me to just one map of that region that shows THESE specific, nonexistent, hypothetical borders and I will concede to you the point. If you can’t, then you have made an unsupported assertion…which I can’t find anywhere in my official debater’s handbook as an approved debater’s tool.
Jersey, you have pointed to Carter’s assertion. I suspect that If I contacted the Swedish officials for the Atlas in question, it would not show THESE borders. It would be an atlas showing present borders. After all, why would the Swedes be publishing an Atlas showing presently non-existing borders? What the Atlas would show is a regional map of the area, just as one would find on any Atlas of the world. A map to which the hypothetical borders discussed at Camp David but which were never activated, were then added, being redrawn from Ross’s original maps.
That is to say, I suspect, but cannot prove. I haven’t made any assertion requiring proof.
You assert that these maps are readily available from many publicly available source. Show me one readily available source…surely there must be some Liberal web-sight who has drawn together several publicly available, independently verifiable sources showing not only the region but these particular borders. That is what is needed here, not Carter’s own assertion. Carter sends me to an unnamed Swedish official. Not exactly a readily available, public source. And an Atlas published in Jerusalem in 2004. Which Atlas exactly? Published by which company? Where can I find a copy of the Atlas? No answers. Sorry but that doesn’t come anywhere near to disproving the plagiarism claim.
Show me a photo from that specific atlas that shows exactly those borders and I’ll say uncle and hang my head in shame.
I, on the other hand, have pointed to a newspaper article discussing the controversy from a generally credible source (the LA Times). I have pointed to a source which has reproduced and placed side by side the maps from Ross’s book and from Carter’s book. They look identical to me. If you have a source other than Ross’s maps from which Carter’s map might have been reproduced, pony up.
I want to see a picture of a map of the region that shows these borders, a picture of a map not drawn by Ross and not derived from Ross’s map. Nothing else will do here. Surely out of the “many “similar” maps of that region [that] have been produced”, one such map can be linked to…
By Craig R. Harmon on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Rats, I alluded to a source showing the Ross map side-by-side with the Carter map but failed to give the link. Here is the link.
By Jersey McJones on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
You wanna see another map? Read Carter’s book.
JMJ
By Craig R. Harmon on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
One possible correction. The link given in comment #11 lists Carter’s map as “Israeli interpretation of Clinton’s proposal” The map is of the West Bank. Those borders are the one’s in question. It seems clear to me that, from the two side by side pictures, the borders are almost identical … but not quite. The borders differ somewhat. If one begins at the upper right hand corner (so to speak) of the shaded area and proceed along the border going mostly West (and slightly inclining to the North) one finds that Ross’s map proceeds in a nearly direct line until it turns North. Carter’s map, on the other hand, proceeds West (and slightly inclining to the North) but, before turning North, actually turns in a southerly direction. Ross’s map does not show this slight chunk out of his map. Perhaps it is simply the difference of scale but that doesn’t appear to be the case.
From this, I would presume that IF Carter used Ross’s map, he did not simply follow it slavishly but made at least one slight alteration to it.
Understand, perhaps Carter’s map IS derived from the source that he mentions. Perhaps Carter’s map shows borders drawn independently from Ross’s. Perhaps Carter used Ross’s maps but found reason to deviate slightly from Ross’s borders.
All I know at this point is that the two maps do appear to differ slightly in the contour of the borders at one point. I do not consider the plagiarism claim to be established unquestionably. I do not consider the claim to have been disproven at this point. I simply draw attention to the claim and leave it to others to decide for themselves on the question.
By Craig R. Harmon on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Concerning #12, Jersey, stop talking nonsense. The maps in Carters book are the disputed maps. Looking at them will prove exactly nothing.
By Jersey McJones on Dec 22, 2006 | Reply
Whatever.
JMJ