Steve’s Inconvenient News Flash: Hummer Better For The Environment Than The Prius
April 3rd, 2007 | by steve |Here’s a little inconvenient truth to any smug, condescending liberal who thinks Al Gore’s shit doesn’t stink:
When it comes to the environment, Hummer beats Prius hands down.
I had this startling revelation occur to me TWICE today in two different instances. One was from a psychologist and the other was in his waiting room while reading the National Geographic. (Note to Darling Wife: Let’s get a subscription for it off one of your cheap websites).
As most of you know, we’re a Hummer family. Proud owners frankly. My wife took a rear ender in it a few weeks back and all we had was a scratched bumper. Needless to say the other car needed some nice repairs and some paint. We get a new panel and they get a big bill. No biggie. No one was hurt.
This morning while at the doctor, I was reading the National Geographic from last year. It didn’t dawn on me until way after that I should have taken down the issue number for this post. Anyhow, the article was talking about man has introduced new species into areas of the world and how the wreak havoc on the environments. Frogs in Hawaii. Snakes in the Everglades. You get what I am talking about. The article featured a fisherman in the San Francisco Bay and how ships from overseas have introduced foreign sea water into the bay killing off many species of fish that once thrived there. The article mentioned how when these large ships keep from tipping over by filling their hulls with sea water to keep them balanced. I then began to think of all of those foreign cars that come into SF Bay from Japan and Korea. Namely the hot selling Prius. The little “eco-friendly” car that brings a cancer to San Francisco’s fishing industry with each boat load. Apparently the micro-organisms in the Asia water don’t play well with the micro organisms in the bay which is disrupting the food chain and killing sea life. The article mentioned there were laws against this but whether they get totally followed or monitored is up for debate. We aren’t talking a few gallons of water, we’re talking thousands and they have to be emptied when the ship is unloaded. WOW!!! I never knew this.
The second thing came from my doctor and he told me how the Prius’s battery or the stuff needed to make the battery comes out of some nickel plant in Canada. I found this article regarding this on Green Mesh.
To quote:
Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.
The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.
“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.
All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?
Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.
When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.
Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial
So… that adds to the ongoing debate regarding the environment. Most of the quoted text comes from a Greenpeace leader in Canada? Eh? Pretty bad when Greenpeace is picking apart the Prius. I’ll stick to enjoying my family’s safety, the ability to carry home our IKEA Furniture without renting a Diesel Truck and our trips to the snow.
18 Responses to “Steve’s Inconvenient News Flash: Hummer Better For The Environment Than The Prius”
By crusy on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
The CNW report refered to in that artical you took your quote out of seems to have a few “facts” wrong or at least skewed quite a bit.
Why should a Prius have a lifetime of just 100′000 miles? Will it just break down at that mileage? No, most will last at least 200′000 miles, as some have already done. Will a Hummer H3 last 300′000 miles? Maybe, but it will need some repair and maintenance too.
The facts on that nickel mine are just plain out of date, yes the situation there was terrible before the 90’s. The Prius wasn’t even being built at that time, though and things have changed dramatically. (http://www.inco-sudbury-airquality.com/) The Production of the Prius battery also only accounts for a very small part of worldwide nikel use, most is in any metall alloy, of wich the H3 is also made of.
About mileage, the Prius EPA mileage was 55 combined but has been corrected to 46 combined. Aveo EPA MPG was 30 combined but has also been corrected now it is 27 combined, 46 is still more than 50% better.
Adding research and development into the equation doesn’t help the Prius of course, as it is a newly developed vehicle. H3 is just a nice looking SUV on a old GMC cassis of course that didn’t take much R&D. Where would we be if we didn’t invest in R&D though? New hybrids will require less R&D so some of what it took to develop the Prius will be returned.
Of course driving at all causes more environmental damage than riding the bus, bike or going on foot. But if we want to use a car and need to buy a new one I think the Prius is a pretty good choice. If you want to stick with the old one, sure that will also cause less pollution, as its has already been built. If you want a cheep economy car like the Aveo, well sure that will definitely be better than an SUV.
That’s about all there is to say to that artical.
Cheers
crusy
ps Also look at what GM has to say about rebuilding Chicago from wood out of the Sudbury area: http://www.gmcanada.com/inm/gmcanada/english/about/MissionGreen/Daily/Sep22.html
By steve on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
At least give credit to the “articals” you plagiarized. Nice graft of the comments from Business Weekly. I guess you put your faith in some 30 year old and his comment from his parent’s basement than a university.
You can’t even deny the imported sea water claim by National Geographic.
Goes to show how the media is playing you… Even a Greenpeace guy is behind this.
If the average driver puts on 12,000 a year it’s safe to say that in 20 years a Hummer is more likely to be on the road than a Prius of the same year due to the cost of it’s battery and depreciation. If a car cost you more to fix than it is worth, you’ll ditch the car. GM has plenty of “conventional fuel” cars that have well over 300,000 miles on them and so does Toyota and every other major auto manufacturer (except Yugo). The first Priuses are just getting to 10 years old… 6 if you are in the US. Most people don’t keep a car with more than 100,000 miles on them anyway.
By crusy on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
Hi Steve
You know just putting something other people have written in my own words is not “plagiarizing” quite yet. But of course there have been these types of comments as an answer to all the bloggers who are linking to the Reporter Artical.
You Wrote:
“You can’t even deny the imported sea water claim by National Geographic.”
Well I don’t think I need to try to deny that, as motor vehicals from the far east are by far not the only goods being imported. Shipping is of course one of the least regulated industries when it comes to pollution.
What will be or not be in 20 we will just have to wait and see, as I don’t agree with you that the Prius won’t be drivable by then.
Cheers
Crusy
By Jersey McJones on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
Nice try, Steve, but you don’t have a friggin’ clue in the universe of which you speak.
Having spent a three years as a quality inspector in the auto manufacturing industry, and a decade working for two of the largest container lines in the world, specializing in imports, I think I know a litttle more about this subject than you from reading a friggin’ NG edition.
Forgive my “smug condescen(sion),” but please allow me to educate you a bit here, so that you don’t look like a simpleton in certain circles.
In every automobile there are represented thousands (on average 4000-5000) parts manufacturers from all over the world. Every auto, including your Hummer, is made from these parts. Where an auto is assembled is barely a relevent factor to the shipping involved in total to assemble it. ALL autos are internationally made, so to speak, and the parts and raw materials are shipped by land, sea and air, all over the world in a complex logistical web. To even attempt to calculate the affect of the shipping from any given vehicle would be one hell of a task, but on average would be about the same for any car, “foreign” or “domestic.” The old “Buy American Cars” argument holds no water whatsoever (pun intended). There’s no such a thing as an “American” or “Japanese” or German” car. They are all made from roughly the same amount of internationally produced parts.
Nickel is utilized in countless points along the way of making an automobile - wiring, batteries, stamping, in various parts, etc… . The hybrids, from what I understand as they were born after my tenure, are now moving to using recycled nickel from some of these other uses for their batteries, and could realistically make that the sole source within 10 years. And nickel is but one source of pollution generated from all the parts manufacturing. Unknown and countless tons of pollutants are released annually from the processes of manufacturing in total for all auto manufacturing.
It’s a cute little argument you’re making there, Steve, but simplistic and ignorant.
JMJ
By steve on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
“Having spent a three years as a quality inspector in the auto manufacturing industry, and a decade working for two of the largest container lines in the world, specializing in imports, I think I know a litttle more about this subject than you from reading a friggin’ NG edition.”
Must not be very good at it; can’t stick to one job. Having a bit of trouble with the drug tests or can you not fit into the forklift anymore?
Why don’t you actually read the post next time? I spoke of two cars, not the entire auto industry. Two cars! The Prius by the way has more parts made and manufactured outside of the US than any other import. The H3 is assembled right down in Shreveport, LA giving jobs to Americans (allegedly). By a matter of principle even with all the foreign parts made around the world, the Japanese cars travel thousands of more miles than a Hummer before they get to the showroom. What do you do when the battery dies Jersey? Does your experience in the shipping container business also include waste management of dead Prius batteries? And I could have chosen the Prius VS Scion argument and it would not have fit onto this blog. But because I choose what’s a readily a political argument… the Hummer, you want to dismiss me because “you” are an insider to the biz? How about dismissing the facts eh without using your previous job as a dishwasher at the shipyard’s food court as expertise? You got beat on this one and you know it.
Game Over. Bring on Tom Baker or Ken Granlund, at least they know WTF they’re talking about!!
By Ron on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
I didn’t even know that the argument against Hummers was environmental in nature. I thought it had to do with it being an absurd gas guzzler.
By Jersey McJones on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
Fuck you, Steve. I left the auto industry when I fractured my C7. I live in pain every day because of that. So fuck you. After multiple injuries and surguries, and quitting music, I finally had to settle down and get a desk job, and that’s how I wound up in shipping - I had a background in shipping from when I was a kid. Schmuck.
People who live in metro areas who drive Hummers are MORONS. I could understand if you lived in the Rockies, but in Sac-ra-f’n-mento??? Pl-ease. How the hell do you even find parking for that terrorist-funding machine?
Tit for tat, Steve. Tit for tat.
And yes - shipping scrap was a huge part of my work in shipping. It is a primary American export (I moved into exports as well as imports when I got into shipping accounting). I collected from and managed accounts that shipped dead batteries, as well as motors, drive trains, metals, etc. ALL CARS ARE MADE FROM PARTS AND RAW MATERIALS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, YOU MORON, AND WHEN THOSE CARS DIE, THEY ARE SCRAPPED AND THEN AGAIN SHIPPED ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Beat? You’re insipid little argument would get you laughed out of any office in either of those businesses.
JMJ
By Dusty on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
Since the Prius and the Hummer have been on the road for less than 10 years..how does anyone know the ’shelf life’ of either vehicle? I realize the Hummer has been used in the military for some time..but that has no bearing on how it will fair as a civilian vehicle.
My contention with the Hummer is that its a terrorist-friendly vehicle. It guzzles gas faster than almost anything in its class. Every vehicle in that class should be taxed up the wazoo for being such guzzlers of a finite resource.
By steve on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
Jersey:
1) Sorry about your pain. Stenosis in C7 and bulging L5 here. You of all people should know when I am shitting on you out of the spirit or argument’s sake.
2) I resent the fact that you and Dusty call the car or any car a terrorist funded vehicle. It’s kind of careless if you think about it because really, if there is someone out there driving a 20 year old car because that is all they can afford to feed their families and it gets 10 miles to the gallon, you are basically saying the same thing about them. You are saying we should tax the shit out of them because they use more fuel. We already do tax the shit out people when they use more gas. I have traveled through the Midwest and Nevada recently. Gas is 50 cents cheaper per gallon in those states than it is in California. Sure some of the have 85 octane gas but when the majority of us just fill up with the cheapest, 50 cents is 50 cents. It’s $3.26 a gallon down the street right now. Our prices are higher due to tax and regulation, not demand.
It’s a finite resource in it’s current state but I am sure there are other places that are burning fuel way more carelessly than a Hummer driver. Take a look at the pollution in Tehran or that idiot in Venezuela? Take a look at the developing nations like China. You guys all want to lean on the Japanese and the Prius technology that is “so much better”. Truth’s in the eye of the beholder and that car is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get your hippie side enraged.
3) Tit for tat? what the hell are you doing? I can park the car just fine in any spot. Ever hear of freedom of expression? You want conservatives who want a ban on porn to look the other way… Why can’t YOU look the other way when you see a bigger vehicle on the road? Yes it is the same type of mentality.
Ever been to Sacramento Jersey?
None of you are refuting the ocean water thing or the science of the Prius battery and it’s lifespan. Why?
By Paul Watson on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
steve,
Ocean water thing: Every car that has parts made in Asia, which means every car, also causes the same problem. So your Hummer also has the same problem. If your car parts come from multiple ports or on multiple ships, that means they cause a more serious problem as they use more ships. That was the point Jersey was making.
Taxing the shit out of petrol: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!! Seriously, that is funny. You aren’t close to having the shit taxed out of petrol. The UK has prices of 88p (around $1.50) per LITRE!!!! THAT is the shit taxed out of petrol.
By steve on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
Yeah but Paul, the Prius has an extra trip a fully assembled vehicle across the Pacific. The Hummer does not. Thousands of them are being shipped annually.
You guys can’t even driver on the correct side of the car, let alone the road. You should have the shit taxed out of you. I rode in the front seat of a cab through Stoke-on-Trent and I thought I was gonna have a freaking heart attack!!
True though Paul, it’s hard to compare America to a socialist economy. We don’t even know what taxes are here. The shocking thing about Britain was that it was 8 bucks for a burger at Burger King. I am sure the British don’t make that much more if at all more per capita than Americans, yet talk to a liberal and they (and the poor) have no money while they sip from their extra hot, decaf, 2%, room for creme, Chai Tea Latte that cost them $4.00. The rest of the world doesn’t have readily available hook up to the internet like we do now. What’s that cost the world now in energy and fuel?
It is laughable to berate a Hummer driver, let alone anybody via the internet. WTF are we all doing?
By tos on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
So we should be happy about that Paul? That you pay more taxes. Actually you should be a little pissed off about that I would think. Oh sorry that’s for all your social programs.
By Paul Watson on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
Steve,
I’m not berating you, just clarifying others’ beration. And that only applies if the Prius is assembled in the US (no idea if it is), in which case it wouldn’t be any worse than the other cars, so it’s still not the point. If not, it only gets 1 trip to the US at the end, whereas the parts could get dozens. I’m not saying this isn’t a problem, just that it affects every car, not just the Prius. And as I’m on green electricty, I can use it with a clean conscience.
By Dusty on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
I don’t give a rat’s ass if your offended by the term steve. The middle eastern countries love people like you..driving a huge vehicle that sucks more gas in one week than my 6 cyl uses in a month. There are 6 cyl SUV’s why don’t you own one of them? They have just as much room as a gas hogging 8 cyl.
your not some poor ol sot driving a clunker..give that one a rest dude as well. I am aiming my disgust at people who drive huge SUV’s in the city, going to work alone in that huge gas guzzlin sumbitch.
I think the govt needs to tax the living shit out of people like you that drive big SUV’s. Tax you when you buy the damn thing and then tax you on every fucking mile you drive in a year. Bet you wouldn’t be so happy to drive that damn thing then.
You said: It’s a finite resource in it’s current state but I am sure there are other places that are burning fuel way more carelessly than a Hummer driver.
No..you can NOT use that argument..its a strawman argument.you can tell me till the cows come home how efficient your hummer is..the point is..you use more fuel than normal vehicles. The vast majority of SUV drivers own them for status, cuz they sure has hell do not need that gigantic sumbitch to get them to work or that lil run to the grocery store. Its an ego thing and I don’t care how you paint the picture, its still bullshit that our govt doesn’t penalize people that waste a finite resource by driving a gas guzzling Hummer for personal vanity.
By Ron on Apr 3, 2007 | Reply
“I resent the fact that you and Dusty call the car or any car a terrorist funded vehicle. It’s kind of careless if you think about it because really, if there is someone out there driving a 20 year old car because that is all they can afford to feed their families and it gets 10 miles to the gallon, you are basically saying the same thing about them. ”
Too damn bad. There is a difference between you and poor families. You have a choice. You choose to drive some ostentatious fuel waster.
“It’s a finite resource in it’s current state but I am sure there are other places that are burning fuel way more carelessly than a Hummer driver. Take a look at the pollution in Tehran or that idiot in Venezuela? Take a look at the developing nations like China. ”
You’ve conflated two arguments. The civilian Hummer wastes fuel. You can’t argue that fact away, so I guess that’s why you keep bringing up pollution. Nice red herring you have there.
“None of you are refuting the ocean water thing or the science of the Prius battery and it’s lifespan. Why? ”
I think several people already have. You have a bad case of Ferrous Cranous.
By Lazy Iguana on Apr 4, 2007 | Reply
How can a hummer cost $1.95 a mile to operate when gas is is at least $2.50 a gallon? Now I understand that even the H1 gets better than 1 MPG, but I would still question that number.
Did you bother to do the math? Lets use your numbers!
$1.95 x 300,000 = $585,000
$3.25 x 100,000 = $325,000
And then consider:
A) the number for the Hummer has to be low, because everything about that car cost more. Tires. Gas (uses more therefore it cost more to drive). Insurance (more likely to get into an accident because few people know how to drive such a heavy vehicle - they do not stop that well at any given speed AND when you do hit something you tend to do a lot of damage to it). And so on.
Next, who are we kidding here! The Hummer is all about “look at me”. Nobody who buys one wants to keep it 300,000 miles. Why by then it is old! There will be a newer model on the market. And it will have ugly scratches. Parts will be breaking all the time. I have driven old American cars before - it is not pretty. You fix the AC and the brakes crap out. Fix those and the radiator cracks. Fix that and the power steering pump explodes. Fix that and the AC breaks again. And this was only a Dodge with 110,000 miles in it that got its oil changed every 3k miles.
On the other hand, my Toyota with 60k miles on it has yet to have any original part replaced except the tires, the air filter, and the oil filter. Oh yea and the battery. And the O2 sensor. And spark plugs. But nothing major. Of course this is only 60k, but so far so good.
The numbers for the Prius have to be high. The purchase price if the Prius is simply not high enough. If you drive an average of 12k miles a year, then you will hit 100,000 miles in what? A little over 8 years? if you make $50,000 a year, pay $1,000 a month for your house, $500 a month for food, and $150 a month on utilities and internet and cable and stuff there is simply NO WAY you can afford to spend $164,340 AND $325,000 for the stupid car. Consider you will only make $415,000 over that same 8.3 years. $164,340 + $325,000 = $489,000. Therefore, according to your “figures” someone making a mere $50k a year can not afford a car. By the way, $500 a month for food if you have a family with kids is not very much food. And $1,000 a month for a house payment in a major city is not very much either
I call bullshit on these numbers. And the idea that it requires more energy to produce a car that weighs less than 1/3 of what as Hummer weighs - I do not care what the car is made from.
Personally, it does not really “bother” me too much when people decide to buy a Hummer. I have seen people who buy these things, then have to sell them at a loss when they realize they can not afford them AND everything else. The house next to where my parents live sold to a young family. When they moved in the guy drove a H2, his wife some other large hunk of shit. Within a month both vehicles were gone. Today they both have a Honda. They could not afford the large vehicles AND the house. I also suspect that they might have to foreclose on that house soon, they bought at the peak of real estate prices and probably got one of those ARMs. They also stopped all the “improvements” they were doing. Some jobs are still only partially finished.
By Lazy Iguana on Apr 4, 2007 | Reply
Also, it is pointless to talk about a 10 year old car and “Hummer” because most of those things are not 10 years old yet. Some of the first models may be.
And if all you can afford to buy is a “10 year old Hummer” I call bullshit on that too. My dad bought a used Honda to drive to and from work in. He paid just under $3000 for it. This was almost 4 years ago. In that time the little car has been to the shop two or three times for repairs. It has close to, if not over, 200,000 miles in it. The AC still works (that was one of the repairs).
You find me a used Hummer for $3000 that even runs. If you are on a budget and looking for a car, you are as likely to get a Hummer as you are a new Lexus.
Ship ballast water is a side issue. More shit from China to feed Wal-Mart comes in on ships than cars from Japan. And then all that oil needed to fuel the army of “economical” Hummers has to come from somewhere else. And yes, I know about ballast water. I am into boats and stuff. This is how zebra mussels got into the Great Lakes. Ships are not supposed to dump untreated ballast water overboard - but they do.
And by the way, my Toyota was assembled in the USA. So Toyota is as American as GM!
By steve on Apr 7, 2007 | Reply
Iguana:
Prius is entirely NOT made in America. The Camry however is mostly built American. Some of that money still goes to Japan for that car.
My H3 gets 18.7 miles per gallon on the last tank. The BMW I got rid of to get it got 19.8 miles per gallon. My Dakota I used for work the last two years got 16.5 according to the mileage computer on the truck. I never reset that thing in the 55,000 miles I drove it in two years. There are MANY CARS on the road that are pulling down similar miles per gallon. Full Size Trucks are pulling down what H2’s do.
As far as the figures for the cost per mile to own those vehicles. Costs came from those articles I cited. They figured the total from the start of production, through consumer ownership, to disposal costs once the vehicle no longer operates. They factoring insurance rates, interest payments, maintenance including warrantee costs, dealer fees, average repairs,transportation costs of all the replaced parts, everything around each vehicle from start to finish. They figure the environmental costs for each vehicle in dollars as well. The Prius battery is not easily made, not cheap, and not easy to dispose of and most are expected to last 100,000 miles. That is the point of the whole thing I put forth here.
It was said on the radio the other day that it costs the average Californian 70 cents a mile to operate a car. Miles per gallon absolutely is the biggest factor.
Also Lazy, you are right, a car is a look at me choice. Equally so, a Prius is a look at me choice as well. South Park did a great show regarding the Prius and the me choice. But you are bringing some absurd situations into this. I am not gonna disclose what my household income is or what my mortgage payment is. When I first got married we had a stripped down Subaru Forrester that we got for 18 grand. It was what I could afford a payment on. But you seem to be factoring that people are going into seriously stupid debt to afford their cars. There is some truth to that but really it doesn’t apply to everyone in America. You also seem to think that no one takes care of their cars. I dare you to find that any of my cars, including the one on my blog, that has a scratch or dent on it (besides the rear quarter panel where my wife was hit a few weeks back).
Oh… and our insurance is much lower than what the BMW’s was.
So can I call bullshit on what you say or do you want to look into it more?