Report from British Government doubts Bush is truthful on torture.
July 21st, 2008 | by Dusty |From Jurist:
The Human Rights Annual Report 2007 [PDF] released Sunday by the UK House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee recommended that the UK not rely on any assurances made by the US that it does not use torture. The report also calls on the UK to fully investigate US interrogation tactics to ensure that no torture techniques are being used on US detainees. The report’s section on torture focuses on waterboarding and the disconnect between US statements that the practice does not constitute torture and testimony by UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband that “water-boarding amounts to torture.” The Foreign Affairs Committee wrote in the report:
We conclude that the Foreign Secretary’s view that water-boarding is an instrument of torture is to be welcomed. However, given the recent practice of water-boarding by the US, there are serious implications arising from the Foreign Secretary’s stated position. We conclude that, given the clear differences in definition, the UK can no longer rely on US assurances that it does not use torture, and we recommend that the Government does not rely on such assurances in the future. We also recommend that the Government should immediately carry out an exhaustive analysis of current US interrogation techniques on the basis of such information as is publicly available or which can be supplied by the US. We further recommend that, once its analysis is completed, the Government should inform this Committee and Parliament as to its view on whether there are any other interrogation techniques that may be approved for use by the US Administration which it considers to constitute torture.
BBC News has more. I really don’t have anything to add this early in the AM on a Monday. Its just the wonderful start to another week of BushCo bullshit.
But WAIT!!! It gets better:
Earlier this month, the Foreign Affairs Committee denounced what it termed “false US assurances” about rendition flights through the UK Indian Ocean territory of Diego Garcia. The committee also said the “failure of the United States Administration to tell the truth resulted in the UK Government inadvertently misleading” the committee and House of Commons about US operations on a military base located on the island. Lawyers for Reprieve, a UK legal charity representing some of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, alleged (PDF) last year that UK overseas territories have been used “to support illegal interstate transfer, enforced disappearance and torture in the context of the ‘war on terror’” and urged UK lawmakers to question US and UK officials about the allegations. In 2005, UN Special Rapporteur on Torture Manfred Nowak said there had been allegations that the US was secretly detaining prisoners on military vessels at the Diego Garcia naval base.
Have a good week!!! ;p
Crossposted at Leftwing Nutjob
26 Responses to “Report from British Government doubts Bush is truthful on torture.”
By manapp99 on Jul 21, 2008 | Reply
So the Brits think America tortures people?
“Torturing petty criminals
The images depict British soldiers smiling as they abuse Iraqi prisoners. They show forced homosexual acts and fellatio. They show beatings of bound prisoners, torture using forklifts, and prisoners repeatedly being forced to flash the “O.K.” sign to the camera.
These prisoners were not terrorists or murderers, people against whom individual soldiers may have held grudges. They were imprisoned for petty crimes, and they were being tortured for no better reason than to amuse their torturers.
These men were looters — American soldiers had tended to ignore such petty criminals. “These things happen,” US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld casually said at the time. In contrast, the British ordered their troops to take a tougher approach to looting in what they dubbed Operation “Ali Baba.”
Some British soldiers apparently interpreted this official stance as giving them license to commit torture — a sort of semi-public form of entertainment on their bases in southern Iraq. On May 28, 2003, one of the soldiers involved took a roll of film home to Britain to be developed, behaving almost as if the photos were little more than vacation snapshots. It was the horrified woman working at the photo lab who notified the police.”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,338240,00.html
more
“Ignoring the dark chapters of history
Commentators such as Paul Gilroy of Guardian have referred to the Britons’ previous approach to their own history as “self-righteous.” Gilroy writes: “This was our mentality: two world wars, one World Cup.” In the past, historians such as Niall Ferguson presented whitewashing interpretations of the Britons’ “good empire,” interpretations that have always gone over well with the public.
But now the British public is being confronted more and more frequently with a darker side of its history. In an article in the Independent, author Caroline Elkins confronted Great Britain with its brutal past as a colonial power, writing about atrocities committed by her countrymen in places such as their own “gulag” in Kenya in the 1950s, where 1.5 million people were imprisoned and more than a hundred thousand were killed.
The British, writes Paul Gilroy, “have never truly processed the loss of their empire.” Could this be the key to Blair’s interventionism, his missionary-like, self-congratulatory adventure in Iraq, a country that once belonged to the British Empire?
The images of torture in Basra have forced the British to confront new questions, to become newly acquainted with portions of their history that have never been dealt with, to revisit some of their more scandalous chronicles. The British undoubtedly find themselves in an unaccustomed position — on the therapist’s couch — and they feel horrible.”
But hey, they feel bad about it.
By Paul Watson on Jul 21, 2008 | Reply
We also admit it, manapp. You still claim you don’t torture. How can you stop it if you don’t believe it happens, or that it’s only a few bad apples rather than policy?
By manapp99 on Jul 21, 2008 | Reply
Paul, I supect that there is a lot more going on out there than any of us know. Be it in US or UK military or at the local police station. I agree that this does not make it right but that most of the “harsh interrogation” that occurs stops short of the pulling out the fingernails or raping family members style of torture. I have a problem with making this seem like a neo-con invention or that the US was pure until Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield took over.
I point out the Brits torture due to the fact that Dusty brought forth this report from the UK House of Commons. The Brits doubting Bush is honest about torture is like saying the pot doubts the kettle is truthful about it’s color. A big so what.
By Lisa on Jul 21, 2008 | Reply
So admitting it is redemption.
Nice way to justify it Paul.
By Paul Merda on Jul 21, 2008 | Reply
Did you ever hear the philosophy that once a man admits he’s wrong,he’s immediately forgiven wrong-doings?
A big pat on the back if you can name the movie..
By Lisa on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Pulp Fiction
By Dusty on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Lisa is it possible for you to expound further?
By Lisa on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Yes it is pretty much an BS excuse for doing somehting wrong because the person that said it never had to clean up pieces of someone’s skull.
By Paul Merda on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
LOL Lisa!! Good one
By Dusty on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Oh yeah.thats a great comeback Lisa..and what exactly does that have to do with torturing people and denying that we do it?
Its a valid question..torturing people who in many cases are released years later because they are innocent. Jesus, that is such a wonderful legacy for Georgie ain’t it?
By Paul Watson on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Lisa,
And how many skulls have you had to clean up? I suspect it’s about the same number as me.
My point, which clearly got lost in brevity if not translation, was that I agreed with manapp that the British troops did torture. Even the government has accepted at they did. Acceptance is not redemption. It is, however, a necessary first step. You cannot put things to right unless you admit they are wrong. That doesn’t mean my government has put things to right (and, to be honest, I doubt we will for the same reason the US government won’t admit it tortures). But we have taken a necessary first step that the US hasn’t.
So, in short, Lisa, nyah nyah, we’re better than you hypocritical Colonials. I trust that is bringing things to the appropriate level of debate for you? Or should I go lower?
By Craig R. Harmon on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Well, to be honest, I doubt Bush is being truthful. Or rather, he may be saying what he believes to be true (and therefore may not be lying when he says what he does about lying) but if we waterboarded at least three people as the Bush administration admits to have done, we’ve tortured people. Thus, while Bush may not be lying, what he says is not, in my opinion, true.
By Craig R. Harmon on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Oops. That parenthetical should read, “(and therefore may not be lying when he says what he does about torture)”
By Paul Watson on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Craig,
Additionally, what the committee said is that the US uses a different definition of torture to the UK (and the various conventions). Thus, even if the US government can justifiably say they have not tortured anyone under their definition, they could still have tortured someone under the broader definition the UK laws use. Thus, the British government cannot rely on the US government’s assurances, even if everyone is being honest and truthful. The waterboarding example you cite makes that point rather well. To the US government, this is not torture. To the UK government, it is.
By Dusty on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
I couldn’t say it better Paul! Very well put sir!
Like the alcoholic, admitting there is a problem is the first step.
By manapp99 on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Paul, I am not questioning who tortures or who admits what. I am questioning a torturing nation (England) putting out a report about another nation’s veracity about torture tactics. Seems it might serve better to attend to it’s own affairs before pointing fingers.
Further I question the motives of the leftwing nutjobs that parade such reports as some kind of evidence of the atrocities the Bush administration. So you really think a President Obama with his Democrat congress will be free of all transgressions? Or that the CIA under Bill Clinton did not use rendention as a tool? The CIA has clearly had it’s issues (including crappy intel gathering in the Mid-East)and has been accused of some pretty shady dealings but the reality of the matter is that Presidents have little “real” control over much of what happens in the federal government.
The same accusers today will be tomorrows apologist. You wait and see.
By Dusty on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Manapp, what the democrats do under the next administration has no bearing on the present actions of the current administration.
As for your line that Presidents have little control or knowledge..bullshit sir.
Bush and company held meetings on the subject of torture in the WHITEHOUSE..so there goes that theory of yours.
Plus BushCo has made the Unitary Executive the centerpiece of this administration..not to mention they had underlings draw up memos as to what our military can do..aka torture and how they can do it. BushCo was very involved in the process of torturing individuals.
By manapp99 on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Lets look at what the Democrats have done under THIS administration about waterboarding.
“In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA’s overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.
Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.”
snip….
“Yet long before “waterboarding” entered the public discourse, the CIA gave key legislative overseers about 30 private briefings, some of which included descriptions of that technique and other harsh interrogation methods, according to interviews with multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge.
With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).
Individual lawmakers’ recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support. “Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing,” said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. “And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement.”
Hmmmmm encouragement.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664.html?hpid=topnews
By Paul Watson on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
manapp,
America criticises China’s human rights buses, right? And Iran’s. By your argument, you should shut up about both until you stop torturing. Somehow, I doubt that’s what you meant.
You might also note that in response to Craig, I pointed out that this is a warning to our government that because of the different definitions, our two countries do not consider the same action in the same way, thus we cannot rely purely upon a blanket assurance that the US does not torture. According to our laws, you do.
By Paul Watson on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Obviously, that’s abuses, not buses, as I doubt China has any buses specifically for its human rights.
By manapp99 on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Bottom line is that the report from the Brittish serves no purpose. It is about the same as the Democrats encouraging waterboarding one day and condemming it the next.
The UK questioning the veracity of the US about torture is questionable in itself. Your motives for presenting this story is just more unfounded Bush bashing. IMO.
By manapp99 on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
manapp,
America criticises China’s human rights buses, right? And Iran’s. By your argument, you should shut up about both until you stop torturing. Somehow, I doubt that’s what you meant.
Paul, this is exactly what I mean. These kinds of back and forths are not productive and are usually just political posturing. Really, what do you expect to change due to any of these charges or reports?
By manapp99 on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
And…I don’t know but I hear that the Chinese do provide buses to the abuses. I think I read that in a report somewhere.
By manapp99 on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Paul, even if the US were to say to England “yes we waterboard and yes we consider that torture and yes we lied to you all week and Sunday too.” What would change in the working economic and security relationship we have with the UK? None, I suspect.
By Dusty on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Two wrongs do not make it right manapp. Yes, the head Democrats, four in all, were complicit in the torture that took place in the beginning. That isn’t news and it doesn’t change the fact that BushCo allowed and sanctioned torture.
It is also part of the reason that the Democrats do nothing but give lip service to this issue. Jane Harman did speak up, via a letter to the CIA, asking questions about the legality of the program, none of the CIA folks or those four Dem’s ever took any steps to stop or even restrict the interrogation program in any way.
When the SCOTUS ruling in 06 came out and said the GC applies to all our war prisoners..that was when the Democrats could and in many cases did come out against torture and specifically waterboarding.
By Paul Watson on Jul 22, 2008 | Reply
Well, if they just said it to England, I suspect the other parts of the UK might get a little pissed.
And it would make no difference to the relationship between our countries. We both do a lot of business with countries that have a appalling human rights records, so this wouldn’t change the relationship at all as the US is hardly a major abuser, it’s just not living up to it’s self-declared standards (not that any country actually could live up to those standards, but even so…). It would be mostly used as a shield against charges of misleading Parliament. Arse-covering at its finest (and an attack on the US by a committee that’s not enamoured of the government’s approach to fighting terrorism and attacks it by attacking the American policy and saying we shouldn’t be using you as an example).